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 Entertaining the Thought

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Eaton

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PostSubject: Entertaining the Thought   Fri 07 Aug 2015, 22:18

Eaton headed back into Nacogdoches whistling while he went. There was still some hours before sundown where he could be able to conduct business umbra-side, so he reasoned he needed a kill some time. He was planning on just heading home and maybe finding something to read until he saw the prodigal's Philodox walking intently towards Harriet's saloon. Realizing that their conversation had been cut short the night before, he called out to Zas and ran up to him.

"Hey! So, I know you were talkin' last night 'bout the stuff that went on back at new Zion and if that related to anythin' in that cursed town of Zavala. Considerin' we were kinda dead-tired last night and Red wantin' to purify us, I thought maybe now we talk 'bout it a little more, and I'm curious as to what your take on what Moronai is."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Fri 07 Aug 2015, 23:17

Zas smiles at the Galliard as he sees him approach but the smile begins to fade as he indicates what he wishes to discuss.
"I think Moronai is not to be trusted. I am certain that mortals should not wield the magic that is concentrated around the town. I am less certain of who or what he is...which gives me all the more reason not to trust whatever it is."

Zas pauses for a moment, "My suspicions also are raised by the fact that when questioned about where it came from-it had no answer. That, combined with the fact that we know it is powerful, and the fact that it claimed to be an Angel which we learned from Metal Noise was not a good entity to tangle with...I'm concerned."

Zas then heads over to an alleyway and pulls up a bench as he sits down and says, "That said-I'm not entirely certain why it offered or what boons it could provide that I would trust should we call upon the favor it agreed to owe us. What is your take on it?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Fri 07 Aug 2015, 23:37

Eaton scratched at the side of this face before he said, "He seemed okay at the time, but my opinion mighta been swayed but all the wretched wyrm shit we dealt with. Made 'im seem outright holy in contrast. They're precious few spirits that can be trusted completely. The fact that he couldn't remember his own purpose was a little strange, too."

He frowned in thought, "From what I've been mullin' over, the angel-like bein's in the bible were man's way of understanding spirits. Maroni reminded me o' that, and those folks seemed to eat it up. If those freaks in Zavala were clingin' as tightly to their angel as they were to Maroni, I can see why Huling and all 'em were as messed up as they were."

He then looks at Zas more intently, "Have you had much exposure to angels, god and all this before? I heard of some missionaries when I was younger wantin' to spread God's word with the natives. Any of that reach your ear?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 00:02

Zas twisted his mouth as he recalled his early days.
"I went to the catholic mission a few times as a boy. The women that worked there were...not kind. In fact-If I didn't know better I would assume they may serve the wyrm."

He shakes his head, "I listened to some of their stories from the book of theirs. Most of the stories made me laugh. The people who dwelled in that city of Gamorrah..." Zas actually stifles a chuckle. "I liked that story."

He then sighs as he says, "I did listen to the stories, but most of it seemed so silly compared with the tales my tribe had. Do you think Jana will raise up your son in church?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 02:33

Eaton let out a laugh, "The stories mighta seemed weird to us, but tryin' to explain the stuff we see on a daily basis would probably be tough to explain. That's why I view it as more of a lens for someone who was tryin' to make sense of what was happenin'. As for my son . ."

He runs his hand through his beard, "I actually got his name from one of the prophets from the bible. I'm sure I'll tell 'em the stories in there at some time or another. I'll still probably keep the focus on our legends and tales. I can't really see my Elijah becomin' an altar boy."

Getting another idea, Eaton adds, "I do see these angel's as somethin' that came out this certain culture, the one what worships this particular god. I don't recall seenin' any native tales that feature anythin' called an angel. And in the case of Maroni, he did follow those people here. The best guess I've got so far is that these angels are spirits interested in humans in particular . . . whatever their reason."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 11:07

Zas considers for a moment, "I don't know of any stories about Angels, at least not good ones. But there is an old legend the village elders would tell the little ones to keep them close..."

Zas looks to the ground rubbing his chin, before shaking his head. "If you're interested I can tell it you. I never thought much about it, but you are interested in collecting many stories so...who knows, maybe it can help."

Zas clears his throat and draws a circle in the dirt. "The legend says that in the time before the Natahay walked, the Sun-man Quiche shined on the earth. Quiche wished for others like him and so he took warmed the earth and made things grow so that the others could come to join him."

Zas then draws a squiggly line through the circle and says, "Things grew and came. Quiche was happy. But one of the creatures that come from below-kaheesi..." Zas stops and explains, "Kaheesi are shape changing monsters/demons. When the first white people came the children called them Kaheesi because they were different and scary. When the white people began to harm and corrupt the tribe, the elders called them demons. Now the word means pale demon."
He continues, "It was not happy. It did not like the things that grew that Quiche made. It wished to go back below. The Kaheesi decided that since he could not go home that he would make Quiche send him home by hurting the creations Quiche loved so much. So Kaheesi made all the creatures that sting and bite and poison. Then he taught the creatures of Quiche how to kill by using these bad things. Kaheesi then stood back to watch. The creatures took what it had given them and began to hone their skills and eventually grew so that Kaheesi began to love them and grew jealous that he did not have creations like man, so he took hold of a few men and made them like him."

Zas then wipes the squiggly line out and says, "Quiche grew angry but because his creations had grown so attached to Kaheesi's lessons, and the creatures Kaleesi made were originally his, Quiche could do nothing to his creations without making them sad. So instead, Quiche took Kaleesi and sliced him up and then burned him."

Zas leans in closely as he looks to Eaton while drawing a small squiggly line in the center of the circle again, "Kaleesi did not die though. The people he had changed were apart of him. Quiche seeing this decided that he would keep him weakened by having Kaleesi and his creations spread all over the world."

Zas then wipes away the dirt, "The part that always scared the children was that Kaleesi's creations lived and that Kaleesi could one day return. Usually the only way to prevent this was by obeying the village elders."

Zas looks to Eaton, "It's nothing about angels, but that's the legend."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 14:05

Eaton listened inttently to the Philodox's recount of the native legend, nodding and eyes widening in realization. When Zas finished telling the tale, the Galliard said, "There's still plenty to talk about within that legend. It's actually a very familiar story; a benevolent, powerful entity creates, another creature appears and corrupts the order of things, and there's a not-so-great resolution that messes things up even more."

Holding up three fingers he explains, "The Bible calls it the devil, we call it the wyrm, and this Kaleesi doesn't exactly sound like somethin' of Gaia. Somethin' else that appears over and over is that this evil ain't destroyed or defeated. The devil was cast out of heaven but brings hell to humanity. Dependin' on who you ask, the weavers attempts to imprison the wyrm only made it more insane. And Kaleesi seemingly has the power to reform, only havenin' been weakened."

He puts his hand down as he continued, "That's why I'm thinkin' we're all seein' the same enemy here, just in different ways. Unfortunately, the bible really didn't go into great detail with dealin' with evil spirits besides avoidin' em in the first place and that ain't a option for us. Tellin' me to put trust in god and he'll take care of it doesn't exactly put me at ease."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 15:02

Zas shrugs his shoulders, "I suppose the minds of men could see elements of the battle between Gaia and the wyrm and the weaver. The veil shields us when we stand before them in our true form. Whose to say there isn't such a thing between the war and ordinary people?"

Zas then dusts his hands as he says, "Like I said though-it was just a story the elders told to keep the children close. Campfire or ghost stories meant to frighten. The elders told us many other stories that were meant to teach useful things. Animal spirits who were friends and why they could be trusted, or why certain trees made strong bows and others did not. These stories were good. The one I just told you was not a good one in comparison."

Zas then looks at the galliard and says, "I'm curious why you chose a name for your child you found in a book you read that you don't really believe in. As we learned in our conversation with the river spirit in Austin, names have meaning and power. Is it wise to give something as precious as a Garou life a name like that?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 15:51

Eaton gave an agreeing motion as he said, "The spirit in your story didn't sound exactly good, but it still served a purpose. Sometimes that kinda discipline is necessary. The angels that weren't evil in the bible still weren't exactly nice; the angel of blood slew children throughout the land of egypt when they failed to heed the word of god. The distinction between the good and bad angels is whether or not they're followin' their gods orders. And Maroni seemed to think he wasn donin' gods work."

At the mention as to why his son has the prophets name, Eaton gave a slight frown, "I wouldn't say I completely don't believe in what the bible says. I see it as an interpretation of folk's tryin' to get a sense of the spirit world, what's beyond the veil. As for Elijah it's not that I just liked the name; it was a passage that got me admirin' the prophet."

He takes a deep breath before he began to recall the tale, "The nation of Israel where he was teachin' lost faith in the god of the bible, instead listening to the priests of a false god, Baal. In order prove his god to the israelites, Elijah proposed a challenge to the prophets of Baal, that whoever performs a miracle would be the one true god. He was vastly outnumbered by the false priests as the people of Israel gathered to watch the duel. The prophets of Baal went first, cryin' out to their god and conducting their rituals, mutilatin' themselves and making a big show be dancin' for hours on end. Even durin' all this, nothing happened. Elijah spent the time mocking the priests, callin' out their god claimin' he was asleep and they just weren't loud enough to wake him. Eventually, it was Elijah's turn to prove his faith. He set up an altar to perform a sacrifice, but not before drenchin' the whole thing in water so it couldn't be lit. He then prayed to his god while the amazed crowed looked on: Fire rained down from heaven, burin' up the altar leavin' nothing' behind without harmin' anyone else. Neededless to say, Elijah won the contest."

He then seemed contemplative, "I think that story stuck out because even though he was outnumbered and not exactly of popular opinion, he still had the courage to mock his enemy 'cause he knew he as right, and that his faith would see 'im through. If names have power, than I want my son to not just back down at a challenge, but to triumph, and laugh in the face of the enemy. Kinda fittin' for a Ragabash, don't ya think?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 18:41

Zas strokes his chin, "If the distinction between good and bad Angels is whether or not they follow orders and you say Moronai did not seem to follow orders...then by that books standards he is bad. What does that book say about what happens to bad Angels? Does it say anything?"

At Eaton's reasons for naming his child Zas sighs and says, "I understand. But I ask you-why name your child after someone else? If you wish for your child to be a good Ragabash and to be able to hold his own, why not as a Galliard create a new name that has its own story to tell? I am not judging your choice but I am curious why the tales of people who do not view Gaia the way we do holds so much appeal?"

He pauses, "do you think the stories within that book are true?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sat 08 Aug 2015, 23:46

Eaton gave a sly smile, "Ya see, Zoe and I had a debate back at New Zion whether these people could be trusted. She thought along those same lines; that Maroni was no servant of god and that was enough to say that he was up to no good. I still think that Maroni and the people of New Zion mean well. Perhaps somethin' happened to Maroni and doesn't remember god 'cause he never as an angel, but the people's beliefs make him think he's one. As for what the bible says about these angels . . . it's nothin' good. They try to lead people astray, keep their minds off god and cause 'em to sin. I dunno about Maroni, but that sounds an awful lot like another angel we may know."

As for the question about his son's naming, Eaton raised an eyebrow, "Well, I was thinkin' of naming him after his grandfather like I was, but I still wanted to name him after someone. Even if it ain't exactly a Gaian tale, I still admire the character. As for if they're true or not . . . plenty of Garou still debate whether our own legends actually happened. Does it really matter if its fact or fiction as long as ya learn somethin' or it speaks to ya?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sun 09 Aug 2015, 00:55

At Eatons initial comment the philodox nods once as he says, "If Maroni is no angel, and he doesn't serve this God, then is it a spirit? If so why does it not follow Gaia? Your claims are thought provoking but I don't think I like where that trail leads us. As far as the other angel is concerned-I'm fairly certain that if they don't claim the Wyrm as God, the wyrm uses their work to its benefit. Either way, that needs to end. Permanently."

Zas then considered Eatons reply and almost instantly says, "You do realize you are speaking with the philodox?The truth is paramount. If we can't discern the difference between truth and falsehood we leave room for the Wyrm to corrupt. The Legends of the Garou are stories made with at least a grain of truth intended to inspire greatness. Why have galliards learn the stories if they are lies? We learn from failure. We learn from success. We learn from truth for the truth is pure. If lies are what one seeks-listen to the Wyrm. It's filled with them."

Zas grimaces, "Our exchange with the Red Talons I had hoped would make this clear. The truth saw us safe and clear. The price of deceit would have been death."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sun 09 Aug 2015, 16:28

Eaton did give a nod before he said, "Well hey, from what we saw of Maroni doesn't mean he ain't of Gaia, even if he doesn't think he is. Givin' those tools and stuff to the humans seemed to be the influence of the weaver, though he may be confused as to what he's doin'. Maybe we could have tried to see what could be done about him, but I think we didn't wanna any ill will to form between us and Zionites. I don't see Maroni as a problem, more as a potential aid to uncoverin' a solution to deal with other one."

Eaton crossed his arms, "That depends on what you're learnin' the stories for. If yer accusin' the Silver Fangs for startin' the war of rage, you better make damn well sure you've got your facts straight. Of course as a Philodox ya use stories to try and reference past judgments, so they must be truthful to be fair and just. But for inspirin' and teaching? No, I don't think those always gotta reflect what really happened. Some legends are just parables and exaggerations that mighta happened in some form, but after goin' through so many retellin's and prejudices, somethings' do get lost or change. It don't mean it's a lie or it holds no value. Its lesson and wisdom could be the truth, even if the details don't always match up."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sun 09 Aug 2015, 20:54

Zas looks upwards for a moment and stretches as he says, "Moronai is a question I don't have much of an answer for. Using its aid to eliminate our other issue would bed some of my concerns but then again, the less we reveal to the witches the safer I think we will be. I'd rather rely on the known before depending on the unknown to stop a threat as real as the Wyrmspawn girls."

At Eaton's last comment Zas turns to him and asks, with a look of concern "What good is hearing an inspiring story if It is not real? How does listening to lies make your grow or become stronger or draw closer to Gaia? I understand exaggeration and trying to make things sound a certain way. I mean most of our claims that we make to increase in our rank if we're honest are exaggerated at least slightly, but that is far different from intentionally bearing false information.    

No, as far as it concerns teaching, or inspiring Garou tales-we need to stick with the truth. If we teach lies Garou will die. If we weave false tales-how are we different from the Wyrm?"

Zas considers for a moment, "Have any of the stories you told me been made up?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sun 09 Aug 2015, 21:43

Eaton raised both his eyebrows and gave an unimpressed frown, "Now you're the one doin' the exaggeration. Unless I went back to those willworkers broken ship so I can make sure all these events happened, I don't have a way of provin' them to be true. There's fine difference between a tall tale and a lie; even if I can't verify everythin' in the story, that doesn't mean the underlyin' truth should be ignored."

Eaton thought for a moment before answering Zas' second question. "Ya know that story back in Zavala when we lost our fetishes? I said they were children of Gaia. I heard another version that puts the pups as Get who were killed as punishment while Gaia's kids had to perform some sorta penitence. Now, those both can't be true, but that don't mean either of 'em is a lie. Does that really change the nature of the story: that one must be wary to the spirits tricks?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sun 09 Aug 2015, 22:40

Zas nods firmly in response to Eatons initial statement, "We were there. We experienced it. We got Silke with us. The truth is clear."

He takes a breath, "You also have not heard me. I understand exaggeration. I understand the difference between a lie and a legend. A legend is based on truth and actually occurred at some point.

What I am saying though is that you cannot and should not lie especially when it involves teaching or inspiring others. If you tell a legend-fine-that is based on a true experience. But, do not try to convince me that it's okay to outright lie to inspire others. That is okay to teach lies. I will not accept that. No good comes from that. If you teach one of our younger Garou Cubs that they are immune to Silver and that they can't be killed-that is a lie. They believe you and go off to fight the wyrm and are slain having not taken precautions based on your lessons...their blood is on your hands. That is no exaggeration. That is truth."

Zas then asks Eaton, "Why could both of those stories not be true? Do you truly believe only one set of Cubs has ever lost or misplaced a fetish? That our pack are the only ones to make a mistake or lower our guard? No. If you did I'd think you a fool.

We do not raise in rank by glory or wisdom alone. We must have honor as well. If our words and deeds are false why bother serving Gaia?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Sun 09 Aug 2015, 23:38

Eaton stared on dumbfounded, though a hint of rage could begin to be see flaring in his eyes.

"No, you're the one who ain't listenin'. A lie is purposely tryin' to lead someone astray, while I've been sayin' as long as the message and teachin' of the tale brings about good, there's no harm in that. Bein' able to make sure everythin' that happens in our stories is completely accurate with no errors, that's impossible. So, yes, I will say fabrications are gonna happen, but as long as they sow seeds of wisdom and knowledge, I don't see the big deal."

Doing his best to keep his tone calm, he adds, "All I'm doin' learnin' the legends is takin' another Garou's word for it. Now, I will say that most of the stories are as historically accurate as possible. Should I only recount the ones I know are completely true? Cause it'll be a pretty short list."

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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Mon 10 Aug 2015, 00:15

Zas eyes hone in on the Galliard, "I asked you once before if you could see the future. You said no. I will ask again. Can you see the future? If your answer is still no then you cannot possibly expect me to change my stance on this.

Lies tear down, lead to suffering, and eventually death.They always have. Knowledge and wisdom must be founded in truth. Anyone who says otherwise is out to deceive you.

You don't see any problem with lying as long as you have good intentions? That is an opportunity for the wyrm to act if ever I heard one-for if we lie about seemingly insignificant things, how can our words be reliable for important things?"

Zas steps back noticing he'd taken an aggressive posture as he holds up his hand, "I appreciate you coming to me with your thoughts on the Moronai issue. I appreciate you feeling that you can talk freely with me about things that concern you...but on the matter of truth not being the priority--I am not the right person to speak with as evidently we see this issue differently."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Mon 10 Aug 2015, 21:24

Though his eyes narrowed back at the Philodox, he took in breath and said, "You know when I was recountin' our Zavala adventure to Red Oath back there? Did I go to great lengths to make absolutely sure that she understood we didn't realize that were in a dream? Did I illustrate every putrid extremity of the Lacrymae? Did I stress that everyone in that cursed town was addicted to Huling's brand of cough syrup?"

Before Zas can answer, Eaton continued, "I didn't, cause none of that changes the nature of the story: That we were fools who got duped by the wyrm into loosin' our fetishes. I think that was the big take-away and why we reasoned we needed an Alpha. Tryin' to include all those minor events don't illustrate the truth any better- they obscure the reason I'm telling the tale in the first place. No one needs to know how many swings it took to kill Huling, what time of day we spoke with Patience, and what we ate for lunch. That ain't lyin; I ain't tryin' to deceive anyone. It serves no purpose to the lesson of the story: That even seasoned Garou can fall for the wyrm."

Eaton just shook his head, "Stressin' on makin' sure I got the tinge of a Red Talon's coat right or how warm it was that night doesn't make the stories anymore or less truthful- it just misses the point of tellin' the story in the first place. It ain't in the details where we find the truth- we find it in the integrity of the message."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Mon 10 Aug 2015, 22:26

Zas sits down, his hands gripped onto the bench as he says, "I am not saying you need to list every detail. What I'm saying is that if you blatantly lie, the meaning of the message has no integrity."

Zas braces his back against the wall as he continues, "A lie even if it's used for good purposes is still a lie. You as a Galliard would tell a different tale of how Roaring Jack's son died. You might point out his strengths, and possibly claim that he fell slaying many wyrm servants. You would turn the event that occurred into a story-giving drama and highlighting the action and the sorrow. Whereas I as the philodox would give a brief but laid out synopsis of what happened. It would be based on simple facts. Both of us would be telling the truth."

Zas pauses for a moment considering the words of his packmate, "I think I understand. You aren't saying it's okay to lie. You are saying it's okay to make the story more important than the details and that the legends of the tribes could be fact and actually have occurred or could just be wise stories or maybe a mix of both. That... I feel better about."

Zas sighs, "I get worried when I hear some of the things I think people say, especially when it revolves around truth. I suppose I'm not listening as well as I should when people discuss things I value. I heard your words but not your intentions. Truth is many things, but rarely is it simple."

"The truth can hurt, but it is what's best in the long run. That's essentially what I've had to tell myself in response to how we dealt with Papa Samba. I don't like how that ended, but the truth is now known. In time perhaps, Papa Samba may realize this."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Tue 11 Aug 2015, 22:02

Eaton did his best to resist rolling his eyes as he replied, "I never actually said it's okay to lie; a lie's whole point is to mislead and deceive. Hence the sayin' a half-truth is the same as a lie because you're manipulating' the facts. If anythin' I've been sayin' that the stories message has gotta be true. I like to think we were agreein' with each other the whole time and ya just thought I said somethin' else."

He scratched the back of his neck, "Eh, what troubled ya about Papa Samba? That we didn't let him touch the spear he had no business messin' with?"
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Tue 11 Aug 2015, 23:18

Zas gives a small smile as he says, "No-The Mokole could obtain the spear in other ways if he wishes...of that I'm pretty certain."

Zas then shakes his head, "No what troubled me was that we left on bitter--near hostile terms. Kefka's ancestor gave him the truth. It was a cold truth and certainly could have been handled with more finess but it was truth nonetheless.

It seems that we keep hearing more of this Apocalypse as the days wear on. We all know that the Wyrm has forces seemingly everywhere. It just...it bothered me that we had a chance at if not befriending one of the other fera, at the very least not having them be an enemy, and giving us one less threat to worry about."

He sighs, "It just seems to be a wasted opportunity."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Tue 11 Aug 2015, 23:54

Eaton gave a small laugh, "If Samba want's to fight Zoe's pop over that spear, I'd say let 'em try. Not before lettin' me watch first."

"And yeah, I can't imagine that he would take Kefka news very well. Course, if the truth is gonna hurt,yeah, maybe more tact coulda been used. I wouldn't get too worried over loosin' a potential ally. It's the Mokele's purpose to remember the history of Gaia, and he can't remember what he ate for dinner last night, I ain't sure we're missin' out on too much by not makin' him love us."
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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Wed 12 Aug 2015, 15:27

Zas shrugs, "Maybe we aren't missing anything by not sharing Papa Samba's company, but we really don't know do we. We travel as a pack. We hunt as a pack. He was alone in his home as far as we could tell, but whose to say he was by himself? Whose to say he doesn't have powerful allies of his own? Whose to say that he wasn't simply keeping his cards close due to the past and that his mind being lost was not merely an act?

My tribe worked with others of his kind long ago. Evidently they saw value in maintaining a relationship. He is an old man, much like Chief Bowl. The chief had such knowledge that even Red Oath sought him out and after working together led a victorious charge against the Wyrm in its own den.

My point is-there was a chance for us to do more, to learn more and based on how we left things, it just feels unfinished. I get a similar feeling when I think about Meroni. Maybe it's nothing, but it's how I feel nonetheless."
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Eaton

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PostSubject: Re: Entertaining the Thought   Thu 13 Aug 2015, 22:30

Eaton gave an considering look, "I understand. But I wouldn't dwell to much on what that ol' lizard coulda done. We've got enough on our plate to lose sleep over what could have been. If he did have a way of dealin' with the Igohida, he probably woudn't have wanted 'em slimin' up his swamp and acted on it."

He gave a smile, "At least we left Maroni in good terms, ownin' us a favor and all. I reckin' without Ebony we shouldn't see Samba again."
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